It is an issue that Mouse has addressed in the past, and he generally has sympathy with. Teachers and nurses can no longer offer to pray with the people they work with, and BHA written guidance to employers tells them that talking about your faith to a work colleague is 'highly likely' to be considered harassment.
The Telegraph letter highlights the case of Shirley Chaplin, the nurse who has worn a cross to work every day for over 30 years, but has been told to remove the cross or face the sack.
Some have questioned the relevance of this example, as the reason the NHS Trust have given for the necklace ban is health and safety, rather than anything religious based. Further, these critics, led by Ekklesia from the Christian perspective, argue that Christians claiming persecution whilst enjoying the privileges of the established church makes the bishops 'look stupid'. This is a line or argument that Ekklesia have used before.
However, Mouse feels obliged to point out that no-one is claiming Christians are persecuted.
What the bishops are pointing to is the steady drift of legislation in the name of equality which removes many previously accepted religious freedoms.
The case of Shirley Chaplin is relevant because of the change of position. For 30 years she has worn a cross to work, but now she is told to stop. Not only that, but she is threatened with the sack if she refuses. The health and safety line comes from the fear that patients will grab necklaces and harm nurses. You would have thought that Ms Chaplin would be able to sign up to the risk and continue as she has for the last 30 years.
Lord Carey's view on Christian persecution in Britain could not be clearer, as he has set it out in a speech just a few weeks ago. He said,
We should be careful however not to draw too many parallels between the experience of Christians in the UK and the plight of Christians abroad. As far as the UK is concerned Christians are rarely ‘persecuted’, and direct comparisons should be avoided. What is happening in Western Europe is not persecution but a marginalising of faith which seeks to portray it as a matter of personal conscience only. Some examples of this originate from a mistaken but well-meant political correctness that is anxious not to upset minority faiths by seeming to ‘privilege’ Christianity. Hence the regular ‘pantomime’ every Christmas where some local Council or another absurdly gives Christmas another name.
The letter may be clumsily worded, however. Specifically the claim that 'numerous cases' of Christians being dismissed is open to the accusation that the number involved is pretty low. However, the overall point they make is that there is a danger of religious freedoms being undermined.
This is a point which is supported by Shami Chakrabarti of Liberty, who commented specifically on the Chaplin case, saying "Rights and freedoms have to be seen to protect everyone with an even hand. Safety concerns about the wearing of crosses can easily be met with breakable chains, but freedom of thought, conscience and religion should bind people of all faiths and none together. There are many who seek to create divisions in society and irrational bureaucracy plays into their hands."
The bishops are right to raise the issue and ask politicians to consider it in the context of the forthcoming election. The argument only looks 'stupid' when a distorted straw man version of it is put up for the purpose of knocking down.






I think our health and safety laws are a bit daft - but I don't think they discriminate against Christians. For years a colleague brought her small dog into the staff room where it slept on its mat, enjoyed the company and could be walked at lunch time. A few years ago, the school ruled this was no longer allowed - health and safety.
ReplyDeleteI used to let students decorate the classroom at Christmas. This is no longer allowed because they must not climb on chairs to put the decorations up. The PE staff have been told they must not wear jewellry to work, nor must those working in the labs or going on a field trip that involves physical activities.
A lot of people complain that it wasn't a problem in the past, they've been bring their dog in, decorating the class, wearing that necklace for the past ten years without a problem - same answer for everyone - tough!
Also, if you look at the letter, terms such as "discrimination" and "serious disrespect" are used. It also alleges that there have been "numerous dismissals of practising Christians" and implies this is due to discrimination purely on the basis of their faith. If this allegation were true, it would amount to persecution of a group of people - to be forcing them out of employment on the basis of belief alone?
ReplyDeleteThe letter, I think, it ludicrous. It complains that "Christian beliefs on marriage are not being upheld". Well, why should they be? In what way is it the government's responsibility to specifically uphold Christian beliefs?
Christians have special influence in the Lords, public holidays based around our religious festivals, countless faith schools which claim charitable status and rights to exemptions from the law of the land on equality!
It is true that in many secular offices we are now expected to follow the same rules as everyone else - why is this a problem?
It seems as if "freedom of religion" is being interpreted as "protection against being exposed to any expression of religious opinion." Those who fought for the introduction of religious freedom must be turning in their graves (by which I intend no denigration of those who choose for religious or other reasons to be cremated).
ReplyDeleteIt depends what you mean by "expression of religious opinion." I don't see church services banned, they are still broadcast on the radio and TV, religious leaders still make pronouncements on a range of issues. We have a right to worship in peace and practise our faith. I have never been harassed on the streets for being a Christian or prevented from attending services or going on retreat. My work holidays coincide with Christian festivals, which is very convenient for me in comparison with colleagues of other faiths.
ReplyDeleteI don't, of course, have the right to harrass gay people about their "lifestyle" in a way that might be offensive or oppressive. Neither do I have the right to make personal comments to colleagues who are living together outside of marriage in a way that could constitute harrassment.
I want the right to hold religious opinion, I don't think I (or anyone else) should have the right to impose this on others.
Where is the problem?
Suem
ReplyDeleteThanks for your contribution. I read the posts on your blog before writing my piece, and whilst we come to different conclusions I do agree with much of what you have said.
I'd just pick up a couple of things.
1) The 'its the same rule for everyone so it can't be discrimination' argument does not hold. There are many examples which attest to this, as the effect of a blanket rule for everyone can be to disadvantage one particular group. The police force has struggled most with this, where the term 'institutional racism' was used to describe the way its blanket policies and procedures (same for everyone) had the effect of being discriminatory. Another struggle (still ongoing) is the right to flexible working, as the insistence of employees being at the office from 9.00am - 5.00pm five days per week has the effect of ruling out anyone who has to pick up kids from school.
It is this kind of discrimination which is becoming the problem for Christians.
2) You ask 'where is the problem?'. The examples which worry me most are those where people have been attacked/sacked/suspended for offering to pray with someone, or the guidance which says even talking about your faith with someone at work is 'highly likely' to be considered harassment. I have offered to pray with work colleagues before, particularly when they have been having a difficult time. I am increasingly afraid to make that offer. This is surely wrong.
I think you have to look at each case on its own merits. I am not claiming that there is never a case where people are unjustly treated because of their Christian beliefs, just as I am sure there is never a case where people are not mistreated for other beliefs.
ReplyDeleteThe praying with someone is an interesting point. Apparently in the case of the lady who was suspended a while back, she had been handing out tracts, offering to pray for healing, there had been several complaints and she had been given a verbal warning. Nurses work with many vulnerable groups, they must not use their work as a means of proselytising!
I would offer to pray for a colleague if I knew they had a faith, otherwise the most I would say is, "You're in my thoughts."
Can you give me a source for the guidance that says even talking about your faith at work is highly likely to be harrassment?
I talk about my faith at work if the subject arises, just as I talk about my kids, or my holidays, or my political views. You certainly have to be careful around some subjects and faith is one of them , but harrassment is quite a different thing in my view.
Are you seriously suggesting that anyone is suspended for saying they went to Church this weekend, if the subject arises?
It takes courage to stand up for what we believe in. Just because equality law or health and safety law appears to deny people the freedom to express our beliefs does not mean that this should not be questioned. If we carried out a risk assessment to find out what the most dangerous things we do we would find that one of the riskiest activities is driving on the road. However, no one is suggesting that we stop driving but they are suggesting that we do not stand on chairs.
ReplyDeleteCertainly we should not openly defy the law for the sake of it or be outwardly provocative but in the right situation people should continue to do follow their Christian beliefs. Whether this means helping someone who asks for help or standing up and proclaiming what we believe in.
If this is challenged and taken to court then people should have confidence in Church Leaders backing them.
I agree with this wholeheartedly, Patrick. I personally think health and safety rules are a bit daft and are mainly there to stop litigation.I do obey them though!
ReplyDeleteI don't think there is a law that stops people holding Christian beliefs, it is that word "following" beliefs. If following your beliefs is going to lead you to break the law of the land, you will pay the consequences, just as any one else would. As for standing up and proclaiming what you believe in, it would depend what you proclaimed and where you proclaimed it.
Your claim re Ekklesia entirely misses its mark. Ekklesia objected to this claim in the Bishops' letter: "There have been numerous dismissals of practising Christians from employment" (which surely *would* constitute persecution of Christians, I think)
ReplyDeleteEkklesia point out that the claim is false. Period.
I should perhaps add that, ersonally I don't have a strong view re necklaces. I don't mind making an exemption for crucifixes if it doesn't cause problems re work or infringe anyone else's rights or opportunities. Seems petty not to. However, most of the claims being made re Christians being "gagged", fired, etc. seem dubious. Do we have clear evidence of even *one* person ever being fired for being a Christian? Incidentally this might interest... http://stephenlaw.blogspot.com/search?q=christians+victimized
ReplyDeleteWell, it seems as though "equality" is the enemy of freedom and diversity.
ReplyDeleteEverybody must be made to conform to a single ideal. Sounds like creeping fascism to me. There may not be persecution yet, but if it creeps much further, there will be.
Good discussion. As for the substance of the various claims (I think I've covered about six or seven on my blog in the past year - whether you consider this numerous or not is another question) it looks like Nicky Campbell will be examining some of them in his easter program on this very topic! Should be interesting.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/7540609/BBCs-Nicky-Campbell-Christians-feel-persecuted-by-human-rights-law-and-councils.html
Mouse, you say: "Mouse feels obliged to point out that no-one is claiming Christians are persecuted." Please, please can you do just a quick bit of research before making these kinds of claims?
ReplyDeleteIn my book Faith and Politics After Christendom in 2006 I cite several examples. But just go to sites like Christian Concern for our Nation, Lawyers Christian Fellowship or Christian Institute and do a simple search under 'persecution' and you come up with articles like: http://www.lawcf.org/index.asp?page=Christianity Under Attack which talks about "very real persecution" of students as far back as 2007, or http://www.christian.org.uk/news/companies-told-to-stop-religious-discrimination/ which cites: "Recent examples of religious persecution in the workplace include..."
Jonathan
ReplyDeleteInteresting point. I haven't read your book I'm afraid, but it does look like a corking read and I am intrigued by the subtitle 'The Church as a movement for anarchy'. It has a series of five star reviews from the likes of Stephen Bates (Guardian), Bruce Clark (Economist), Theo Hobson and the Bishop of Bath & Wells. Unfortunately, Liz (Student from Cambridge) only gave it three stars and called it 'an okay book'. It is available from Eden for £7.85.
And on to your links. They highlight three issues. The first is the approach by student unions to attempt to gag Christian Unions from forming and operating freely on university campuses, the case of Lillian Ladele and Jennie Cain. All are interesting cases, and I wonder whether you would consider them to be real cases of injustice against Christians or not.
As to my quote that 'no-one is claiming persecution', what I meant (which I thought would be rather obvious) was that none of the people I was talking about in my blog post were claiming persecution. I'm sure that there are many people who have made this claim. Indeed I think I heard someone in the pub the other day mention it, but I don't feel the need to refute him in my blog.
In your blog post you said that the Bishops 'look stupid' for claiming persecution where none exists. I am pointing out that this is not what they claimed.
As for others, well that's for them to say what they think and for others to comment on it.
BTW, you may be surprised to hear that I do research things before I post, and I am well aware of the antics of CCFON and CLF.
We did an extensive report on the Christian Unions cases in 2007 which was welcomed by the Government and got quite a bit of coverage in the media at the time: http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/content/united_we_stand_report.pdf
ReplyDeleteWe have also spoken to actors on all sides in many of the other cases, and heard the heartache from all concerned. What we have found is that usually there is a genuine misunderstanding (not some dark conspiracy) at the heart of it which would be better solved by mediation, but the presence of the campaign groups (and bishops) raises the stakes, entrenches positions, and causes greater division. In the case of Duke Amachrie for example, it probably even resulted in him losing his job because sensitive client information was given to the Daily Mail! http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/blog/jonathan_bartley/duke_amachree
We don't say in our blog post that the bishops are claiming persecution. In fact we state that the Telegraph headline is misleading. Persecution I think you will find is in quote marks when we refer to it. (I would be grateful for a correction).
But I also think you are naive to think that there is no link between CCFON, Christian Institute and LCF with the bishops. Anyone who has been following the stories over the years knows full well that these groups have been feeding the bishops (and the Mail and Telegraph) these stories, and the bishops have been taking them up pretty uncritically.
See this report for example about Bishop of Manchester speaking at a conference about "Persecution of Christians in the UK" http://changingattitude-england.blogspot.com/2009/06/are-reports-of-persecution-of.html
...or this video which Nazir-Ali has just done with CCFON with Daily Mail headlines featured about "persecution" http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/11484
JB - not sure what you'd like corrected - happy to if I've misled somewhere
ReplyDeleteJonathan
ReplyDeleteAfter having read your various accounts of these disputes (some of which I had read before, some of which I hadn't) its seems to me that you have ably demonstrated that if you ask people on two different sides of a dispute what is going on, you get two different answers. This is hardly an earth-shattering discovery.
More specifically you have demonstrated that when someone is accused of discrimination, they have something to say in response, which generally goes along the lines of, "no, its not discrimination. Their unreasonable behaviour merited my actions". This is did not require extensive research to discover.
Through all of your investigations, I have yet to see that you have proved any of these allegations to be false (please correct me if I'm wrong here).
I think you are extremely naive if you think that all of this would be solved if the relevant parties just sat down together and talked about it.